Bud,

You have brought up some good points in your observations, especially about splitting the course in half. It is all about efficiency of movement. Two rules to remember are: (1)  It isn't lean behind the boat that generates acceleration but lean in the direction of travel that generates acceleration. (2) It isn't angle that gives you speed but speed that gives you angle.
Having spent a good part of my life flying Jet Fighters with two Combat Tours you learned your life could depend on "Energy Maneuverability," which translates to the Slalom Course as "Efficiency of Movement," thus keeping your speed up. Also, from driving Formula Race Cars up through Indy cars, I learned a lot about the importance of proper setup for the track and conditions you race in. Plus once again, the importance of sustaining your speed and energy at all times.
Since retiring three years ago I have devoted a significant amount of time to bringing all these concepts to the Slalom Course. Laying out the Slalom Course as a six turn race course and asking myself how I would setup the car and drive it. As an example a race term called "Trail Braking,"  translates directly to "Counter Rotation."  Also setting up the Race Car for tight consecutive turns would entail Negative Camber and High Downforce which translates to Length and Depth of the Fin plus Wing Angle.
Finally, what I came up with is a form of Slalom I call "Quantum Pendular Dynamics."  With two primary concepts being, "Sequential Center of Mass Projection," and "Sustained Angular Momentum."  I could speak for hours on this subject and it continues to be a work in progress.
As an example, you were correct in dividing the course in half. Think of the first half as the downswing of the pendulum where you want to GAIN your momentum and the second half, the upswing, where you want to SUSTAIN your momentum. Two good sources of info concerning this are Schnitz's article, "The X Factor "and Chris Rossi's articles, "Skiing the Impossible Line" and " The Power Triangle." Both available on Wade's website ProSkiCoach.Com
Hope this may help in some manner and continue to observe and think outside the BOX.

Best Regards,   ED

The Dbl. pendulum also exemplifies the the perfect Golf swing. (at least between the shoulders and the club head) This also is most of what separates the pro's from the week end warriors. The ave. guy swings the club more like a Baseball bat and lacks the club head speed and sweet spot contact point of the pro's. Not to mention, the ave. guy try's to achieve this with a tight muscler grip and brute force. Flailing away like a wind mill. While the Pro grips it lighty and effortlessly Rip the Ball efficiently with the use and effect of the dbl. pendulum...

I can indentify with Budman's turn example. If I set the ski up so that it will have more acceleration It doesn't want to decellerate very well. If I move the bindings fwd. or reduce the DFT it stops well, but is not quick enuf cross course. I would Love to run my Bindings back more, but I tend to get too much ski out in front of me aft. the apex and it gets unstable and wobbly and will at times wheelie, the Line will sometimes even go under the ski right B4 the hook up and dump me instantly.

For me, I think it's a real flaw in my technique that likes to feel the tip down and stable clear through the turn. I've found that w/o enuf tip rise at the end of the turn it is almost impossible to fall back smoothly into a Good Pull position. These things make me herky/jerky and a bit stop & go.

I'm also guilty of sporactic Handle control and Handle positioning coming into the Buoy... (and about 100 other things as well!)

Last edited by h20dawg79 (Mon, Jun 21, 2010 1:10 PM)

at 15off and slower speeds the pendulum effect is not there "as much", but it is still there. All the more reason to be in the right alignment and body position, esspecially through the acceleration phases.  You generally do have to pull longer for 15off because you are not able to load the pendulum enough and thus are not able to create as much speed out to the buoy.

A common traight with long line skiers myself included is pulling to long when we get to -22 and -28, you must have much better timing, load later and use the pendulum to your advantage more than -15 as at the longer line you can pull just about whenever you want and run the pass

focus on proper body position and movement at 15off and slower speeds, with adequate body position you will be able to run the 15off passes effortlessly, then shortening it to -22 and beyond the pendulum effect becomes that much more apparhent.

Staks, in my opinion you can divide the course in half and get the same pendulum affect at -15, however, you MUST be in the proper proportion. (length to width) You MUST ski the course to imaginary buoys that are about 12 to 15 feet wider than the real turn buoy. Remember, this starts with the width of the pull out and carries the whole way through.

As for the hands and handle; feel strongly connected to the handle in a relaxed way (body core to handle). You let go because you have skied away from it and your inside arm has become an extension of the rope. There is nothing wrong with skiing with both hands on through the course and it can be beneficial with some training exercises.

Also Staks, since you are new to the course, there is some information on this site that Wayne has dedicated only to Power users. I would encourage you to spend the one dollar a week to gain access to that information and the other features for Power users. Wayne puts a lot into this site for all of us to take advantage of for free. It feels good to show him we appreciate it with that little single dollar a month. But you don’t have to; he welcomes everyone because he promotes the sport to keep it alive.

BudMan wrote:

[...]

As interesting as the double pendulum is in the link, I can’t quite picture it correlating with slalom skiing. (i.e. could a double pendulum work with a section of rope as used in skiing? or skiing with a stiff bar as used in the double pendulum.) [...]

I think you would understand it better if you read the Bruce Butterfield article I mentioned earlier.  Unfortunately, that article (in its original form) seems to no longer exists - except in the archives of guys like me who saved it to their own hard drives.

However, a partial hybrid editing of that article (mixed in with other information by the same author) can be found here: http://ballofspray.com/tech-articles/87 … le-control

Sadly, this more current article contains only a tiny glimmer of the original "Butterfield's Law", but in the original article the concept of double-pendulum physics (without being called that) was far more evident.

Note a couple of points that may be gleaned from the above article addressing your concerns:

1) when the rope is loaded it acts in a similar manner to a rigid arm of a pendulum;  for this reason the functional pivot point for the "double pendulum" is the handle

2) your characterization of the skier being "free of the boat" beginning at the centerline is not entirely accurate for many top slalom skiers; while they may not be actively "pulling", the rope remains loaded and they maintain pressure against it until the release - at which time they employ techniques that mimic some aspects of a double pendulum.

At least one top ski coach teaches that your ski needs to be on a pulling edge from spray-to-spray; outbound, that's about 8 - 10 feet past the second wake.  This coach is 50+ years old and regularly skis into -41' in tournaments; from the boat I've personally watched him get 3 balls at -41', and I know he's run a full -41' in practice a number of times.

The most important information we can take from Bruce Butterfield's writings (and from the teachings of the coach I am referring to) is that the longer we are able to stay connected to the boat (through the handle/rope), the better we will ski.  Being "free of the boat" from the second wake to the ball will ultimately NOT take you where you want to go.

TW

staks21 wrote:

I have been to ski school a few times and the coaches that I worked with still wanted me to let go of the handle but this is probably not needed right now.  What do you guys think?

staks

I would say yes, but only briefly,  because it will keep you from starting your turn with your shoulders.  Letting go allows you to keep your upper body square with the boat, and the sooner you can master that, the better.

staks21 wrote:

Well this topic really hit a nerve for me!


So what about the new to the course skier who is trying to run 15 off at 30 MPH.  Do these principles still apply?  I feel like I am pulling to long and then rushing my edge change thereby increasing the slack in the rope.  Should I still only pull until about half way through(between both wakes) and when should I let go of the handle?  Also, What do you do with your hands after you edge change but before you let go of the handle?

Many times with Slalom, you have to Back up to the last move and/or the one B4 that to begin to find the answer to your question or problem. This is one of the Reasons that you must start the course with a Good Gate shot. Even if you miss the Gates a little early, the angle and speed Must be there to get out to #1 early. @ -15/30 mph, most of us will have to have a Longer pull. (30mph makes it even Harder because unless the ski is a "Wide Ride" or you are 130lbs. the ski is sinking and NOT running at it's potential.)

WTS, Joel @ 15off Has a Really Great video of Seth Stisher running 15/30, 15/32, and 15/34. Clearly demonstrating if you have a techinically sound Pull, you still only need to pull to the center of the wakes, where the edge change then happens automatically and he then carries More then enuf speed into the turns.

BUT, he also does Not Bleed off anymore speed then necessary going thru the turn and he doesn't Bobble his body positioning and he maintains perfect "Rope Managment"... He transitions seamlessly from one segment to the next and this in turn gives him a great start into the next pull and so on. One Hand washes the other...

So, "Pulling too Long" can be the result of poor pulling tech. and/or having a less then stellar turn that preceded the Pull. And as you get begin to get behind in the course it creates catastrophic failure...

Miski,

Great point and observations. I believe it is better to start at 22 at a slower speed and work your way up from there. While it is true that speed gives you angle and it is best to keep your speed up through the course, what seems to never be discussed, is that a greater speed gives you greater angle with LESS LOAD.
When driving Race Cars it is a basic understanding to always keep up your speed and momentum through the course. The Slalom Course is no different than a 6 turn Road Course. While every Slalom Article I have read always talks about acceleration beginning at the hookup with two hands on the handle, no race driver would ever begin accelerating at the finish of a turn. I have attended some of the best Race Schools and all teach acceleration is from the apex. I have been working on this for some time, with three different methods, and believe it is the most efficient way to ski. I feel it is the key to efficient short line skiing in order to maximize sustained angular momentum resulting in maximum carryout and sequential Center of Mass projection to the apex.
Good luck in your continuing quest for excellence. Think outside the box.

Best regards,   ED

Has anyone else timed some videos yet? If so, what have you found?  If my timing is accurate with 0.7 on one side and 1.4 on the other, then doesn’t that mean that the 36mph skiers that I timed are slowing down to ½ their accelerated speed in the pre-turn?

I agree that skiing a constant speed through the course makes good sense. And, skiing as straight a path as possible to each buoy makes sense.
The shortest distance between two points is a straight line and to travel a greater distance in the same time frame means going faster. But to me, it doesn’t look like that is what the pro are doing.

What do you see when you watch them?

Is it possible to ski a buoy to buoy path at extreme short line?

I wish some one would do a direct overhead flyover video of someone skiing all loops with the full width of course in view. Surely everyone would benefit from this.

On the race car analogy, there are a lot of similarities. Tire/vehicle slip angle and ski side slip is a good one…
One thing is much different though - on track it is much easier to maintain spatial orientation and the ability to see/think & react for path ahead – in linked corners drivers eyes are several turns ahead or at the extent of visible track. With the track bordered by grass/gravel, curbs, elevation changes, there are way more visual references to keep oriented - I am nowhere close to on-track vision trying to spot little buoys 100-500 ft away on a pancake flat single color surface. This also seems like a big difference between water & snow skiing too.

On ski path & speed:
> wider and earlier makes for the longest skier path = good skiing
> longest path between the entry & exit gates = highest average speed (because elapsed time is constant)
> therefore: highest average speed = good skiing!

Buoy-to-buoy is shortest path & lowest average speed - and turns are tighter and therfore slower, so speed varitaion through path would be higher.

Budman,

You may want to buy a new stopwatch.

Currently, the very best "laboratory" analysis we have publicly available comes from the West Coast Slalom video.  In that video frame-by-frame times, rope loads, angle of travel, etc. are all very fully studied.  Among other things, Marcus Brown is shown at -32' and his times - accurately recorded in 1/100th of a second intervals - are noted.

From the apex of one turn to the middle of the wake clocks out at 1.07 seconds.  From that middle point of the wake to the apex of the next turn takes another 1.47 seconds.  This is nowhere near the 1:2 ratio you are proposing here - it's more like 42:58.

Simplified, that's around 2:3, but you also have to take into account that the actual ski path traveled during the "preturn" phase is much longer than the ski path traveled during the "pulling" phase.  This accounts for much of the time difference, a fact also discussed in that video.

TW
(PS: Within that video a time analysis of Terry Winter at -41' is also discussed; Suyderhoud states that the ratio of time spent on each side of the wake at that line length approaches "about 50:50".)

Last edited by Thomas Wayne (Wed, Jun 23, 2010 5:14 PM)

TW,
It’s my old eyes, old finger and old brain, not the stopwatch. That’s why I wanted some of you to time it also to compare. I think all of this helps, but is there some magic pill I can take to just ski better. I will admit though, I am not skiing as well as I used to, but I am having a lot of fun trying. Some of you make it look so easy.

Everyone,
How do these correlate? Speed on either side of course, time on either side of course and lineal distance from lane buoys to lane buoys at which point you cross to the other side. i.e. length is 134.5 feet; with a smooth S, do you cross at 67.25 or if you crank a turn do you cross at 34 feet?