Cable Slalom Park? / Pro Ski Coach Water Ski Forum

h20dawg79 · #1 Sat, Nov 1, 2008 3:37 PM

have you ever wanted to ski but did'nt have a driver, gas $$, or even a boat??? i have found myself in this position waaay tooo many times! cable parks were actually developed in the 60's for waterskiing. unfotunantely, most all of the parks nowadays are set up for wakeboarders. how many of you have ski'd on a cable slalom course??? whats your opinion on its performance? (pro's/con's) cable wakeboard parks are popping up all over the world. like, approx: 45 in germany alone!! only about 7 in usa in 2008.(and only orlando is set up for us slalom jockeys) but, approx: 9 more slated for 09. i am presently learning what i can about this booming business. i'm looking at the possibility/feasibility of developing a cable wakeboard & cable slalom course park in the nashville area. am i crazy? or would you too have season passes to a park like that?? i know i would be there after work (like going to the driving range) 2 days a wk min. (heck i might even learn to w@<#board!) this would NEVER replace the real deal. just a nice addition. i bet there's a ton of great new slalom skiers just waiting to set down their boards. (they just do'nt know it yet!!!) whats your thoughts or experience?

heres a couple sites to check out for those who are not up to speed on the cable movement... (keep in mind these parks are businesses and must cater to the current demand. unfortunately, the trend at this time is in anything "wakeboard-ish". so, brouse with an open mind, knowing this thing is only in it's infancy and is nowhere near it's maturity and/or potential) take a min. and look into all the programs and features that these parks have to offer, it's quite extensive...

www.orlandowatersports.com

www.ski360degree.com

www.cablewakeboard.com

www.tournamentwaterski.com/aboutus.asp

the above site actually shows some cable slalom clips on the video: "cable skiing". look on the home page click on "skiers", scroll down to "videos", its the last video. bottom right of page...( i have had some navigating issues on this site!??)

Last edited by h20dawg79 (Sun, Nov 16, 2008 2:37 PM)

WadeWilliams · #2 Sat, Nov 1, 2008 9:08 PM

I've never had the opportunity to ski on a cable but the big thing that I see is that it's just a different sport. It could be as fun, but it's not the same. The money is in developing a cable tow system that basically pulls a pylon straight down the slalom course, which in turn then pulls the skier. Yep. That's where it's at. Figure out the rail system to allow the pylon to travel straight down the course at 36, at a constant speed, hook the rope up to that. Sick.

As long as you're top roped the forces are just going in the wrong direction to allow us to ski the same way we do today. Ever try slalomin from the wakeboard tower? Makes it hard to feel the way we are trying to ski right now.

But yes, with the price of fuel heading up up up up up up up up up up up, gasoline engines are going to be short lived. You're not crazy.

h20dawg79 · #3 Sun, Nov 2, 2008 12:03 AM

wade, very cool i like your input. i agree that to slalom from a tower sure changes the game. this is a valid obstacle to over come. there are presently at least 2 different types of systems that i'm aware of. thats why i am very interested in the prospect of 2 separate cable systems. 1 for w@<#boarding! and 1 for slalom. heck, you said different sport and i had thought, why not?? when i see all the cable $ponsership $$$, tour$ and competition$ (like "the contender" cable wakeboard in japan) i'm thinkin if ya can't beat em join em?? i do'nt know, i guess if we can send a man to the moon, we can do about anything we put our minds /hearts to... thanx again for helping to shape this thing

Zane · #4 Sun, Nov 2, 2008 12:11 AM

ok this may sound crazy but to add to Wades idea. maybe the possibility lies in making it an underwater cable system that you can mount a pylon to. Maybe something like a rollercoaster track instead of a cable.. I dont know I'm not an engineer but I can see where you would be trying to go with it.

jwroblew · #5 Sun, Nov 2, 2008 1:07 AM

Alright I'm in. The best way I think to do this would be a rail system, like a roller coster underwater like bosox suggested, you would then use a cable to pull the system. I don't think you would be able to use a electric motor like cable parks, I wouldn't think they would give you an inconsistent pull. I think you would need a pneumatic driven cable, kind of like the Top Thrill Dragster at Cedar Point. A large reserve tank, I would think, would be able to react to the sudden surging you see in slalom skiing.

Zane · #6 Sun, Nov 2, 2008 3:29 AM

I think we are on to something here. could be the next big movement in the sport. now would that hydraulic ram be able to be run both ways? because then you could still make a pass going both ways through the course.

WadeWilliams · #7 Sun, Nov 2, 2008 4:24 AM

sounds easy!

Must be robust to over 1000lbs of force in any direction. And go 36.

tjo · #8 Mon, Nov 3, 2008 2:04 AM

I skied on a cable park in Florida about 2 years ago. I Don't remember the name of the park, but it had two seperate sections...one for waterskiing (with a course) and one for wakeboarding. I tried both sections. I absolutely loved the wakeboard section and absolutely hated the skiing section.

I should add that behind a boat I much prefer skiing the course over wakeboarding. But in the park, the angles and lack of wake made the slalom skiing extremely different and not to my liking.

My opinion is that cable parks can be a really good thing for those learning how to ski and for wakeboarders. But I don't think you'll find any serious slalom skier take to it.

h20dawg79 · #9 Tue, Nov 4, 2008 12:12 AM

BOSOX & JWROBLEW, cool thinking on the system... i originally had the same kind of ideas even having a dummy boat on a rail system to provide a wake! then i took the easier route (wussed out!) and started looking into the current cable systems... i like the pneumatic- "DOCK START FROM H%##" idea!! talk about a new sport! youtube here we come!!!

h20dawg79 · #10 Tue, Nov 4, 2008 12:47 AM

tjo wrote:
I skied on a cable park in Florida about 2 years ago. I Don't remember the name of the park, but it had two seperate sections...one for waterskiing (with a course) and one for wakeboarding. I tried both sections. I absolutely loved the wakeboard section and absolutely hated the skiing section.

I should add that behind a boat I much prefer skiing the course over wakeboarding. But in the park, the angles and lack of wake made the slalom skiing extremely different and not to my liking.

My opinion is that cable parks can be a really good thing for those learning how to ski and for wakeboarders. But I don't think you'll find any serious slalom skier take to it.

thanx for your objections. you may be right, i may be heading down a dead end rd. with the slalom thing. i'm just triing to figure out how to help slalom from continueing to be refered to as: "what people used to do"... i know the cableparks are coming to the u.s.a. big time in the next couple of yrs. and wakeboarding is not the only game on the block. but, its awful hard to get bit by the slalom bug if you have'nt ever been exposed to it...with that said, when i dont have a driver, gas or the time to go home hook up, drive, launch,etc... even if its not as good, (for me anyway) it would certainly rock compared to NOT skiing at all, or staying home doing pull drills in my basement watching video clips of someone else out there skiing!!! maybe it would be a viable practice tool or grooving tool for the majority of slalom skiers which are probably skiing 15-22@30-34 and just triing to have fun ???

jwroblew · #11 Tue, Nov 4, 2008 2:20 AM

Top thrill dragster goes 120 mph and pulls a train of cars that weigh more than 3 tons, granted that is all in one direction not side to side like skiing, but with a little engineering work, you could make a rail system work. And you could design the pneumatic system to run in both directions.

It would be weird to ski with out a boat wake, it would throw my timing way off...

WadeWilliams · #12 Tue, Nov 4, 2008 2:31 AM

It would be awesome!

Garn · #13 Tue, Nov 4, 2008 3:39 PM

I have skied on one of the cable systems. Back in 2000 I was in Orlando at a conference and I took my ski. I went and skied at the OWC (Orlando Watersport Complex). Back then there were a number of other skiers skiing unlike this spring when I went to Orlando I stopped off there just to check it out and the place was taken over by wakeboarders. The slalom course was still set up but only wakeboarders were using the park. I actually had fun. It took my about 5 faceplants to figure out how to get going because you go from 0 to your skiing speed instantaniously. Once I figured it out I had a great time. It was cool as heck having no wake! I found it very unforgiving though. The pull is constant no matter what you do. So you always had to be doing what you are suppose to. Get a little off and it had no mercy on you. The cable makes four 90 degree angles. So they had a couple of buoys at each turn that you needed to go through, and you needed to go through them on the inside edge of your ski. If you didn't do that, like I forgot a few times, and you were out to the right when the cable made its 90 degree turn to the left you would get yanked out of your boots and your arms out of their sockets! The wakeboarders would actually do that on purpose and would get whipped literally 20 feet in the air. It was pretty cool to watch! The thing that sucked was if you fell at the far end of the lake you had one heck of a walk to get back to where you could start again.

All in all I had a blast! It costed me $25.00 for 2 hours. Heck of a lot cheaper than gas in a boat. I would ski, rest for just a few minutes, then ski again. By the time my two hours were up it was everything I could do just to hold onto the handle. I was completely beat by the time I was done. Couldn't even lift my arms up.

To sum it up, definitely different then skiing behind a boat. But still fun - and cheap. I see this as a possible way to get the masses into our sport. Most people can't afford a new boat, insurance, truck to pull the boat, gas, etc. But at one of these parks you don't need any of that. An all day pass is only something like $35 or $40.00. A two hour pass is only $25.00. The problem is wakeboarders have taken it over. If I went to OWC now and wanted to waterski, they would have to kick all the wakeboards out while I skied. I don't think they would be to happy about that.

Garn

tjo · #14 Tue, Nov 4, 2008 4:09 PM

I think the park I went to is the same one Garn went to. And he is right, they had to temporarily kick the wakeboarders off in order for me to ski. Normally they have 6 - 8 riders/skiers at a time on the cable, but since they set the speed much faster for the slalom pull, they had to kick everyone else off. Everyone was nice about it though.

Sorry to be the lone dissenter on this. I'm just giving you my personal experience and opinion. I do think cable parks will become more and more popular becuase it is easy to do for wakeboarders and is easier to setup obstacles to wakeboard on in a cable park.

I think the biggest key to making it more appealing to skiers is to have the cable/rope more level with where the boat would normally be.

h20dawg79 · #15 Thu, Nov 6, 2008 2:37 AM

Garn wrote:
.

All in all I had a blast! It costed me $25.00 for 2 hours. Heck of a lot cheaper than gas in a boat. I would ski, rest for just a few minutes, then ski again. By the time my two hours were up it was everything I could do just to hold onto the handle. I was completely beat by the time I was done. Couldn't even lift my arms up.

To sum it up, definitely different then skiing behind a boat. But still fun - and cheap. I see this as a possible way to get the masses into our sport. Most people can't afford a new boat, insurance, truck to pull the boat, gas, etc. But at one of these parks you don't need any of that. An all day pass is only something like $35 or $40.00. A two hour pass is only $25.00. The problem is wakeboarders have taken it over. If I went to OWC now and wanted to waterski, they would have to kick all the wakeboards out while I skied. I don't think they would be to happy about that.

Garn

ya man, thats what i'm talkin about!!! "HAD SO MUCH FUN, HIS ARMS FELL OFF"... well, or could'nt even lift em... STILL, THAT TOTALLY ROCKS! hey, i had a great idea for the unhappy boarders waiting: tell them to grab a stick and as soon as they can turn all 6 you'll switch to a board! you know, a little bit of put up or shut up. most of them boys are pretty competitive. so, that would probably keep them busy just long enough to hopefully get bit!!! we might have to install a ramp between 3 and 4 so they can still rack up some frequent flier miles or something!!! but hey, what ever it takes to reel in the ma$$e$...

Last edited by h20dawg79 (Fri, Nov 7, 2008 1:40 AM)

h20dawg79 · #16 Thu, Nov 6, 2008 3:10 AM

tjo wrote:
Sorry to be the lone dissenter on this. I'm just giving you my personal experience and opinion. I do think cable parks will become more and more popular becuase it is easy to do for wakeboarders and is easier to setup obstacles to wakeboard on in a cable park.

I think the biggest key to making it more appealing to skiers is to have the cable/rope more level with where the boat would normally be.

tjo, i'm sure your not a dissenter. and your objections are neither insensitive or unproductive. heck man, i'm a very straight forward guy myself and i sincerely appreciate your time and your feed back! i agree with the hgt. issue on the pylon attachment. i guess some issues could easily be solved with enuf $$$... the question is; how can we ease into this thing economically. so we can then test the waters of "cohabitation"... who knows, where it might go. maybe, the I.W.S.F. will come along and sanction some 3 event cable tournaments here (USA) like they do in europe!!! (sounds good on paper!) might need a longer lake for freddy!!!

Schnitz · #17 Thu, Nov 6, 2008 12:57 PM

Wade,

Snow ski lift manufacturers already have the horsepower (electric) and technology to build the rail system. If you do an underwater rail, how will you lubricate the cable?

Schnitz!

WadeWilliams · #18 Thu, Nov 6, 2008 2:19 PM

After thinking about that for 5 minutes I think a much easier solution would be to put a propeller on the thing that's pulling the skier down the course!

So 5 feet under the surface of the water we have our rail that goes straight down the lake.
Topside, you have your regular looking cable park equipment, its obviously got to be on the high end, capable of lots of speed and more importantly torque-
The "Pylon Shuttle" has something that resembles a hull (so there will be some wake). I'm thinking the entire 'shuttle' needs to be about the size of the engine cover.
A picture is worth 1000 words?

Might even need to have 2 rails for the pylon shuttle to ride on, I don't think one rail would be rigid enough to take the directional forces involved. Also the rail will have to turn around at both ends... hopefully on a path that the skier can pull out and drop on, or spin safely & easily -- so Garn doesn't get his arms ripped off on every end!

Garn · #19 Thu, Nov 6, 2008 5:17 PM

Thanks for thinking about me Wade!

smoothasglass · #20 Thu, Nov 6, 2008 7:43 PM

I'm thinkin aircraft carrier catapult steam systems. A pylon above water and lateral support from the pylon under the water may indeed throw some type of wake. Talk about perfect tracking! I like it! Theres a bunch of engineers over on the malibu crew site, or here I 'm guessin. Could that work?

Schnitz · #21 Fri, Nov 7, 2008 1:16 AM

Another idea could be to have a small platform sitting atop the pylon which rides on the rail. On top of this platform (which is above the water level) would be a small-enclosed cabin where the operator would sit and control everything. The operator's job would also be SAFETY! Overhead, there could be electrical wires (something like streetcars use that would supply power to an on board electric motor which would provide the propulsion. Instead of overhead wires, the power could come from batteries. Tesla electric cars can go from zero to 60 MPH in 3.9 seconds with a range of close to 250 miles.

Schnitz!

h20dawg79 · #22 Fri, Nov 7, 2008 2:29 AM

WadeWilliams wrote:
After thinking about that for 5 minutes I think a much easier solution would be to put a propeller on the thing that's pulling the skier down the course!

So 5 feet under the surface of the water we have our rail that goes straight down the lake.
Topside, you have your regular looking cable park equipment, its obviously got to be on the high end, capable of lots of speed and more importantly torque-
The "Pylon Shuttle" has something that resembles a hull (so there will be some wake). I'm thinking the entire 'shuttle' needs to be about the size of the engine cover.
A picture is worth 1000 words?
http://www.proskicoach.com/img/slalom_rail_system.jpg

Might even need to have 2 rails for the pylon shuttle to ride on, I don't think one rail would be rigid enough to take the directional forces involved. Also the rail will have to turn around at both ends... hopefully on a path that the skier can pull out and drop on, or spin safely & easily -- so Garn doesn't get his arms ripped off on every end!

VERY COOL WADE! i gotta admit though, i especially liked the part about the "propeller"! HA,HA!!! ya know, before we completely design this thing, we still have'nt totally answered the question about who will use it? who would benefit from the opportunity? with video (at least 2 cam. angles) could this be a nice addition to ski schools? even though it's "different" would anyone support tournaments if sponsers and some media got involved? after all there would still be records that need to be set and broken... personally, i would be very happy right now with a local cable park so i could "SKI TIL MY ARMS FALL OFF"... or, at least til I need viagra to raise them!

Last edited by h20dawg79 (Sat, Nov 8, 2008 2:38 AM)

Zane · #23 Fri, Nov 7, 2008 2:58 AM

H2o I can tell you that I would definatly use this. I think alot of people would just because it would be so much cheaper than buying a boat finding a place to ski finding people to ski with. and then of course setting up a course and if you are on a public lake trying to educate people on a little bit of courtesy while your trying to rip it up..had a lot of personal experience with that in Maine. IF this thing could be desinged corectly and put into practical application..I think it would take off. maybe design it and put into action at a place like Orlando water sports. where most everything else is already there. its just trying to sell them on the new idea. oh yea and getting the water from the boarders for a while to demo it

Deke · #24 Fri, Nov 7, 2008 5:43 PM

I know that this company is known for their "sheet flow" surfing devices, but they are also working on a "moving reef" system that pulls an underwater reef (or wing) through stationary water on a rail system. There is video of this on their site

http://www.waveloch.com/flash/index.htm

Seems like it would be easy to adapt the same system to a slalom pull. One of the advantages I see of the boatless system besides the obvious precision speed control of an electric motor, no wake, and lack of noise, is that the lake could be shortened considerably if the turnarounds were removed.

BTW, someone on another site mentioned they are having a flowrider "sheet flow" system built for trick skiing.

Deke

smoothasglass · #25 Fri, Nov 7, 2008 9:09 PM

I'm ready, that looks like the deal. Wake easily adjusted to your liking and electric. Wow! I won't have to replace my 2000lxi

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Garn wrote:

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