Grip Question / Pro Ski Coach Water Ski Forum

tjo · #1 Thu, Apr 24, 2008 5:16 AM

Hi, I'm a new member to this forum. I have a question that I'm hoping someone can help me with.

I ski with my right foot forward and I've always held the handle with my left hand over and right hand under. I read an article a year or so ago that indicated it should be the other way around. I'm 36 years old and have been skiing this way since I was 7...but just recently getting back into skiing the course. Not sure if it is worth it to try and force myself to switch. It seems like it would be more efficient to pull through the wakes on my weak side if I switched, but not sure. Any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

Travis

WadeWilliams · #2 Thu, Apr 24, 2008 11:31 AM

Travis,

Thanks for joining!

You pretty much hit the nail on the head; if you swtiched your grip it would be more efficient on your weak side. Right now you have an extra-strong strong side with your backwards grip.

However, it's really up to personal preference. If you've been skiing all those years since you learned, it might be too big of an issue to solve easily. Ofcourse, if you haven't been out on the water this year, it might be a good time to commit to swapping your grip. It's more of a mental challenge than anything else. Obviously it would be better to be 'regular', but if it's going to take you so far off your game that you're not going to progress forward, it probably wouldn't be worth it. Do what feels good ask questions later.

tjo · #3 Thu, Apr 24, 2008 2:40 PM

Thanks for the information. You are correct that my good side feels super strong, but I think I could use the extra boost on my weak side. Next time I free ski I'll try switching it up to see if it isn't too wierd.

ScotChipman · #4 Thu, Apr 24, 2008 4:33 PM

Travis,

I was like you and finally made the switch about three years ago after skiing with and talking to Chris. It was hard at first but after five or six days it started to feel normal. Like Wade said your offside will be stronger, I could never go back.

tjo · #5 Thu, Apr 24, 2008 7:35 PM

Good to know...sounds like it is worth the effort to switch.

shepherd · #6 Sat, Apr 26, 2008 7:17 PM

I'll just second what scot said. I'm RFF and skied with the same grip as you for years. I switched a few years ago and it seems better. I practiced for a week with the handle tied to the door knob in my office just to get used to it. When I went out on the water the next weekend, it felt totally natural by the time I was in my second set.

MattP · #7 Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:00 AM

I ski LFF and I guess I just learned the wrong way to hold my hands. I have been Skiing for 9 years and I read about this topic at the beginning of the summer and decided to change. I went out and placed my hands the opposite way and never looked back. It felt weird for the first couple of runs then I got accustomed and now it feels the same to hold the handle the right was as it once did holding it the wrong way. I sometimes catch my self setting up for the gates with the wrong hand position but quickly change. My PB did improve after I changed . I do not agree with some people ( i read other places) who say that it has no effect on your skiing and either hand position will work the same.

WadeWilliams · #8 Fri, Dec 19, 2008 4:18 PM

It's definitely a bigger mental challenge than it is a physical one. If you know and believe that changing your grip is going to help your skiing, then you're not going to have a problem exacting the fix. I've seen it a lot over the last few months... skiers with backwards grip... while they can certainly still rip it, I believe that it is significantly more efficient (easier!) to ski with the opposite palm up as you are foot forward.

h20dawg79 · #9 Sat, Dec 20, 2008 4:23 PM

WadeWilliams wrote:
I've seen it a lot over the last few months... skiers with backwards grip... while they can certainly still rip it, I believe that it is significantly more efficient (easier!) to ski with the opposite palm up as you are foot forward.

Wade, I've read about this topic b4 and tested it a little myself. I'm LFF with a left under grip (left palm up.) and maybe something that I have'nt heard anyone else say yet: I'm RT handed and kick a ball w/my RT. leg... (predominate leg in rear.)

Can you elaborate on the dynamic of the "proper" grip??? (I don't think "right" or "wrong" grip accurately labels it...) My analytical mind cannot grasp the significance of essentially moving my hands 6 inches up/down the "vertical" handle. (with the handle held vertically, the "grip" never changes, only the location of the hands on the handle.) so, as I go into a right (2 ball, off side) turn, I release my left hand and begin my counter rotatation, my right arm is fully extended and my RT. hand is at the bottom of the handle, 6 inches lower than if it were at the top of the handle... With all the bazillion different factors going on at this moment as well as through the completion of the turn, WHERE does this 6 inches weigh in???

I personally "feel" that I am in a more powerful position (vertical handle) with my RT. hand lower from centerline then higher. But, my pessimistic, anal side abruply askes: WHAT THE HECKS THE DIFFERENCE ??? Is the significance only found during the pull aspect??? How/why?

I AM NOT IN ANYWAY DISPUTING THE STATUS QUO, I simply don't understand it... especially if you factor in the relationship between a skiers "predominate" appendages and placement, into the whole offside/weakside theory... I also agree about the mind ALWAYS being the biggest factor. So, while I'm sure this has worked miracles for many, I'm not trying to incite a bunch of defensive opinions about this. I would however, love to hear some professional input on the "dynamic" for the basis of this theory or fact...

THANX PSC, THIS SITE IS AWESOME !!!

Last edited by h20dawg79 (Wed, Dec 24, 2008 2:35 PM)

moomba1 · #10 Sat, Jan 10, 2009 2:40 PM

men go to waterskimag and click on videos and go to glen campbell video.he explains having opposite hand high to whatever foot forward.he says if you dont you will find one weak side and one strong side.i am right foot forward and left hand high and when i switched it was alot harder to let my arms out after completing the turn.my buddy switched to opposite hand high to foot forward after 35 yrs of slalom and he skis alot better now.i think glen is exactly right.

h20dawg79 · #11 Mon, Jan 12, 2009 3:17 AM

moomba1 wrote:
men go to waterskimag and click on videos and go to glen campbell video.I think glen is exactly right.

Moomba1, Thanx for the input. While I don't dispute whether he's right or wrong, his vid. like anything else that I have seen/heard offers no basis for his theory. (How & Why)

Simply explaining what someone "should do" doesn't make it a fact just because you ski for money! He may be dead on, (and probably is) but for the sake of everyone who reads this post I'm going to continue to ask for some substantiation for this "theory" so we can conclude it as "fact" and then benefit from it! (I also realize, that somethings (like electricity) can't necessarely be fully understood or explained, yet still be useful and helpful!)

I might have gotten a little frustrated while reading this same topic on a thread from another site where the "More Eperienced guys" (they had lots of post's!) really hammered the Newer Guy's (with very few post's) about the "Right Way" and the "Wrong Way" and of course with nothing more to back it up with then basically; "because I said so"!!! (personally, imo, very few things are really absolute, -"Never" or "Always"!!!)

However, you can "ABSOLUTELY NEVER" fear, there is a comprehensive and more importantly, a definitive article that is forth coming from a very reliable authority here @ PSC, whose name I cannot mention at this time... (He's kind of a younger Thomas Edison of Slalom, -can really light up the course!) Stay Tuned, its coming soon! ABSOLUTELY!

Last edited by h20dawg79 (Wed, Jan 14, 2009 12:41 AM)

ChrisRossi · #12 Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:44 PM

The hand that is palm down tends to promote a more closed shoulder turn. You would consciously have to think about rolling the handle to a more palm up position in order to best optimize your body position. Another point is there is a reason your strong side turn is typically called your "on-side" and that stems from the open position your body is naturally placed for an on-side turn. Stand in your living room with your feet exactly as they are on the ski. Hold your arms out so that your body and arms form a "T" shape. Now slowly twist your torso in each direction leaving your feet securely planted on the floor. You will find that you can twist farther for your on-side turn. I would like to offset this imbalance in as many ways as possible. By having the palm up on your off-side turn, you allow your upper body to ski outward more, which puts the ski on a higher edge angle and will produce more efficient turns. I skied the "wrong" grip until about 8 years ago. When I switched, I committed to the switch, knowing that the advantages outweighed the akwardness to grabbing the handle the opposite way.
The first step in changing your grip is to understand why you would want to change and the advantages it supports. The next step, and this is key, is to switch before your season starts. You are weak in a ski sense at the beginning of the year. Make the change at the beginning so that you will develop the strength to ski with that grip. Switching mid-season is nearly impossible due to the imbalance of muscle. The best way to explain this would be to stand with weights in each hand and do a bicep curl with each arm. One arm will have the palm up and the other will have it palm down. Now work out like that for 2 months. Inevitably you will start to be able to curl more and more weight, the more you practice this technique. Now after 2 months, switch the direction of your hands like switching your grip. You will not be able to curl either the weights in your arms due to a lack of specific development. You will have to reduce the weights and work for a while to develop the strength and coordination to once again be able to properly curl that weight. I believe the same is true with switching your grip for skiing.
Start on the very first set and don't look back. The first few sets will feel "wrong" to you just because it is different. Don't let this throw you off the bus. Start now by understanding why you want to change and be prepared for that first set.

h20dawg79 · #13 Sat, Jan 17, 2009 1:17 AM

h20dawg79 wrote:
Can you elaborate on the dynamic of the "proper" grip??? (I don't think "right" or "wrong" grip accurately labels it...) My analytical mind cannot grasp the significance of essentially moving my hands 6 inches up/down the "vertical" handle. (with the handle held vertically, the "grip" never changes, only the location of the hands on the handle.) so, as I go into a right (2 ball, off side) turn, I release my left hand and begin my counter rotatation, my right arm is fully extended and my RT. hand is at the bottom of the handle, 6 inches lower than if it were at the top of the handle... With all the bazillion different factors going on at this moment as well as through the completion of the turn, WHERE does this 6 inches weigh in???

Is the significance only found during the pull aspect??? How/why?

CHRIS, can I trouble you to readdress your explanation from the "vertical handle" position based on my previous post? I still don't understand the signifigance of the hand being 6" higher or lower on the handle going into or through the turn...( I reach/extend with a vertical handle) Unless the difference is only found in the "Pull" aspect & the wake crossings, I'm still baffled!

"HELP US, O' WISE ONE"...

ChrisRossi · #14 Sat, Jan 17, 2009 3:45 PM

It's not about the handle, its more about the position of your hand, arm, and shoulder. A palm up position promotes a more open shoulder position in the turn. In order to get the same result from the palm down hand, the skier must rotate the handle 90 degrees in the pre-turn. This added motion tends to get cut off in the rush of the slalom course, thus promoting a slightly more closed shoulder position. All I can tell you is that the less you have to do for your "off-side", the higher the likelihood of success. You are only as good as your weakest link.

h20dawg79 · #15 Sat, Jan 17, 2009 5:51 PM

Chris, I must be about as dumb as a Rock on this one, Because when I am anywhere near the turn my Handle is in the "Vertical" position and there is isn't ANY possiblity of "Palm up" or "Palm down"...
As I've tried to explain, While in this "Vertical" position the "Grip" is Exactly the same. The only differance is the height position (up 6" or down 6") of your hands on the "Vertical" handle...

Your pic.'s in the topics; "Your best season yet" or "Skiing the impossible line" as well as todays home pg. all reflect this vertical position going through the corner...

So, again is it only a benefit through the "pull aspect" or the very completion of the turn???

Thanks again, "DUMBDAWG79"!!!

h20dawg79 · #16 Fri, Jan 23, 2009 7:22 PM

Here's something that noone has touched on and I think gives some skiers an automatic boost for at least the "Imbalance" part that Chris reffered to.

If you are right foot forward and right handed and right legged, then your "Off side Turn" is further weakened by your weak (Left) arm grip and when going through your "On Side" turn your further strengthed by your Strong (Right) arm grip... A Definite Imbalance!

If you are LFF and right handed, right legged... This criss crosses your strong arm with your weak (off) side turn and Gives your strong (on) side turn your weak arm...

This at least demonstrates the ABSOLUTE difference between skiers based on their forward foot and their dominate appendages.

Therefore, maybe "One size doesn't fit all"...

Sam · #17 Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:32 PM

For sure. My latest thought is that you should be the opposite foot forward as you are handed. Regardless of leg dominance. The RFF/RH individual or LFF/LH individual doesnt have the criss-cross strength that you talked about, which some of the best skiers in the world have going for them.

ColinCanski · #18 Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:36 AM

Hi Guys

Fascinated by this criss-cross idea. I am a RFF/RH skier, with RH down. If I have understood Chris's post, this closes me off to the boat on my offside in the turn. But does this also apply whilst cross the wakes s well?

I have spent 90% of time (& money) working on this with varying degrees of success, it reamins a significant millstone around my neck. After 4 years I still struggle to run a 34mph pass.

My question is this, is it easier to change grip technique or change legs at the start of the season? It is till a bit too cold here in UK for me to ski, but if hangin' off a handle in the house will help, well I'll do it.

h20dawg79 · #19 Sat, Jan 24, 2009 2:05 PM

colin Canski wrote:
Hi Guys

Fascinated by this criss-cross idea. I am a RFF/RH skier, with RH down.

My question is this, is it easier to change grip technique or change legs at the start of the season?

Colin, as I am not a "PRO" I will give you My opinion based on My experience...
1st I would ask what leg do you kick a ball with? If you said; your left I would say your feet Could Not Be Better, But a grip change is certainly worth trying...

However, if you said you kick with your right leg, and have skied for very long, changing the Feet would be a very big under taking to say the least... Again, a Grip change is always worth trying...

I have and will ALWAYS teach new comers to ski with their dominate (ball kicking) leg in rear. (unless they are interested in "Speed Skiing" -60 -90mph)... Some people say; "Do whatever feels natural or the best"... But, that is about like telling a girl just to throw a ball however it "feels natural". Most girls "Naturally" throw off their front foot and that foot is usually their dominate leg and that leg Should be in back... (sure, they can throw it but they would Never be able to throw with any authority -or ever make the team...) Thank God We Can Overcome Most of the disadvantage and even become a "PROFESSIONAL" if we somehow learned to Slalom "Goofy Foot" (domlnate leg forward)

"ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE Thus, ANYTHING IS WORTH A TRY"!

Zane · #20 Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:41 PM

ok I personally dont have an opinion but do have a question. Wade you know and have seen me ski in the past. I am LFF anf LH. I am basically left everything dominate. I do ski with right hand up. Am I skiing with my wrong foot forward? thats just the way I learned when I was a kid and it has stuck through to now. as far as trying to ski RFF I have never tried it, but would it be worth a try?

WadeWilliams · #21 Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:27 PM

Changing feet is quite the feat, compared to changing your hands. Ofcourse, it depends on how comfortable you are with you regular stance. Rossi is "wrong" foot forward - he'll tell you that he rides a skateboard leftie, does this that & the other thing leftie, skis rightie. And he's right handed.

CR is RFF/RH
CP is LFF/LH
JB is LFF/RH
AM is RFF/not sure?

It's an interesting concept.

Andy Mapple Says:
I do not believe the "strongest" leg has to be in either specific place. The more you ski, the stronger your legs will get for slalom skiing. When I teach someone, I usually like to have them go out on combo skis and lift one leg, then the other. This way the skier can get a feel for which leg they feel most balanced on. The leg you are best balanced on, I put forward. When I started skiing, I played a lot of soccer, and I kicked the ball with my right foot, but my left leg was stronger from this. When I did this drill, I could stand on my right leg way better than my left, so it went forward.

Summing all of this up, your stronger / more balanced foot should go forward. Ofcourse, everyone's different. I'm a lot more dominant in my right side than my left. In such an asymmetrical position, the most balance you can have will certainly help out. If we could all learn over from scratch focusing on these concepts then we'd all be a lot better off.

I can run 26MPH / 15 off if I ski LFF, and I feel like a circus act in the process.

If your least balanced leg is on the back of your ski, you might consider trying it the other way around. But it's going to be like relearning how to ski.

I know Chris Sullivan hasn't really been on the water for a while and he was thinking about switching feet (left foot forward skiers have an advantage in our asymmetrical slalom course.

Getting back to the topic at hand about your grip... opposite palm up as foot forward will do THE MOST to balance out your stance.

I learned RFF, and with both grips. On my onside I would cut RPU, and on my offside I would cut LPU.... this way I had an extra strong position going both directions. Ofcourse switching your grip in every turn gets a little obnoxious when the speed starts picking up. But hey it was fun. Now I ski LPU because it makes my "offside" cut stronger.

h20dawg79 · #22 Sun, Jan 25, 2009 2:02 PM

INSANITY" can be described as; "Doing the same thing over and over,
Expecting different Results"...

Maybe this is partially the reason "Men's" slalom records haven't improved much in 20-25 yrs. Even though the boats, equip.and Women have... (That was also once the case in the high jump until ."the Fosberry flop" set the world on its ear...)

I can't argue with a Legend like Andy Mapple, But, for all those readers who prefer to think for themselves and when necessary think outside the box, I offer this food for thought:

The back (rear) of the Slalom ski achieves at least 90+ % of your control, -steering & braking. Just as huge ships are controlled by a "Tiny rudder," the rear foot dictates the greatest influence on the back of the ski ...(which foot in rear would you trust and prefer to be in charge of this huge responsibility?)

When you "fall back" at the completion of the turn / beginning of the "Pull" which leg would you prefer in the rear to reinforce your stability and balance? (how would you prefer to stand in "Tug a War" contest for "optimum" leverage and stability?) With your Center of Mass normally shifting from balanced & centered to balanced & back -but rarely forward ( OTF )... Again which leg are you banking on?

For Slalom skiing, I'll take my "most balanced" (dominate) leg in the rear every time... Throw in the CrissCross "X" factor and personally I'm convinced which way is correct or at the very least the "MOST EFFICIENT"...

As far as; ONE "Proper" Grip??? imo, So far, Nothing compelling...

Last edited by h20dawg79 (Sun, Jan 25, 2009 3:00 PM)

WadeWilliams · #23 Sun, Jan 25, 2009 4:16 PM

Well if you've got your more balanced leg on the back of the ski who knows you're probably better off with a backwards grip, too

http://www.proskicoach.com/slalom_articles/tip_to_rip

h20dawg79 · #24 Sun, Jan 25, 2009 9:12 PM

WadeWilliams wrote:
Well if you've got your more balanced leg on the back of the ski who knows you're probably better off with a backwards grip, too

http://www.proskicoach.com/slalom_articles/tip_to_rip

"Thats what I'm Talkin' bout"...

Wade, You are the Man! It only took you about 25 words to say what I probably spent 2 hrs. and 2500+ words trying to spit out!

P.S. Thank you Wade for all the "Way Cool New posting toys"! AWESOME Man...

tjo · #25 Mon, Jan 26, 2009 4:43 AM

Wow, this has been an interesting thread. We've gone from what I thought was a relatively simple question and answer to some very complicated stuff that I don't understand and now back to, "maybe it doesn't matter".

Just to report back on my experience from my first post. I did make the switch to the traditional "proper grip" as directed by Wade and am pleased to report that I blew my previous personal best out of the water this past season! I'll never go back to the grip I used for 30 years.

I'm probably not as good as half of you on this forum, and so I have to keep it as simple as possible or I can't keep up. So, for me the switch has meant a stronger weak side pull through the wakes, without losing much on the strong side.

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